Finney

[DSport]

Wow, I read this off the Section V site and had to respond. They were down by 2 with eleven seconds to go against Archbishop Walsh and got called for three technicals! They lost 51-45. I don't care how bad a call is, no way do you get three technicals in a game you still have a chance to win!

[bballfan00]

and it says that the bishop walsh player it a finney player and they didnt get and techs.

[DSport]

and it says that the bishop walsh player it a finney player and they didnt get and techs.

I obviously wasn't at the game but I'm not sure what kind of hit it was. Maybe it was a blatant attack, maybe the Finney player was driving and contact was made. I'm not sure. I just know that getting T'd up three times at the end of a close game is never good.

[DrewVT6]

Here's the deal as best I know. Finney was trying to press to seal the deal with 11 seconds left.

The player setting the trap for Finney, was called for a foul. When the ref turned to report it to the scorers table, the Finney player was elbowed so hard his nose was broken and pouring out blood.

Coach Marchand asked the ref what he was going to do about his player's injury. The ref said something to the effect of "Here's what I'm going to do" and walked over and gave the Finney player a T. The kid who was over getting treatment to stop the bleeding made some comment about what a garbage call it was and he received a second T and was kicked out of the game. So Walsh hit 5/6 FT at this point, Coach Marchand called a timeout and approached the other ref to ask why his player with a broekn nose was kicked out of the game. The ref who had just called the technicals was on the far baseline at this point. He heard Coach Marchand asking the other ref about the situation and he ran across the court and gave the coach a T as well. So, Walsh got two more shots and the ball.

Sounds like a fun situation! Obviously the referee saw a different situation, but when a player has a broken nose that occurs after the play and he gets kicked out of the game, something is wrong.

[secvball]

Here's the deal as best I know. Finney was trying to press to seal the deal with 11 seconds left.

The player setting the trap for Finney, was called for a foul. When the ref turned to report it to the scorers table, the Finney player was elbowed so hard his nose was broken and pouring out blood.

Coach Marchand asked the ref what he was going to do about his player's injury. The ref said something to the effect of "Here's what I'm going to do" and walked over and gave the Finney player a T. The kid who was over getting treatment to stop the bleeding made some comment about what a garbage call it was and he received a second T and was kicked out of the game. So Walsh hit 5/6 FT at this point, Coach Marchand called a timeout and approached the other ref to ask why his player with a broekn nose was kicked out of the game. The ref who had just called the technicals was on the far baseline at this point. He heard Coach Marchand asking the other ref about the situation and he ran across the court and gave the coach a T as well. So, Walsh got two more shots and the ball.

Sounds like a fun situation! Obviously the referee saw a different situation, but when a player has a broken nose that occurs after the play and he gets kicked out of the game, something is wrong.


I can confirm that this is what happened. To me, this is just the culmination of hometown refs affecting games. Why does it always seem when a section v team goes to section vi, especially small schools, things like this happen. Similarly, again in the smaller classes, if any team from the rochester area goes to a different county (aka stueben or alleghany county) "questionable" calls seem to be the norm.

Now that i got that rant out of the way, the situation last night was beyond ridiculous. Marchand did not deserve either of the technicals and the ref lost complete control of the game. If blood is pouring out of a kid's nose because of a deliberate hit after the whistle , the coach has the right to ask how that could be allowed to happen.

[ref11]

thats bad what happend to finney. but rember when allegany schools go north to play they get hosed buy the refs so many times its hard to belive. in a jv game at lima this year the refs thought the quater was over when the clock read zeros across witn no horn. then they t up the coached who just ask the explain there reason . ohh well it gets you ready for all the stupid calls

[Lukelakers]

I hope the kid is okay and I hope Coach Marchand has plenty of time to fix his schedule so he can get a better sectional seeding, like he did last year.

[secvball]

I hope the kid is okay and I hope Coach Marchand has plenty of time to fix his schedule so he can get a better sectional seeding, like he did last year.

Yeah because the only reason they won back-to-back state title was because they scheduled byron-bergen as a make-up game. It's not like they rolled through sectionals regardless or had already played the toughest schedule in class D with Aquinas, Charlotte, and Freddie Thomas.

[DSport]

I in no way brought this up to dis on Finney. I was shocked after hearing about it but now am more shocked after hearing the full story. I would like to hear the other side of the story because this is so ridiculous that I find it hard to believe. I'm not saying Drew is lying but if this is true that ref should lose his job.
I will disagree with the comments about unfair officiating coming from Steuben County. The game may be called differently then you are used to but I doubt the officials purposely try to change the outcome of the game. Most of the Steuben County Refs I know are stand up guys. Everyone misses a call or two but to insist they are missing calls on purpose is just stupid.

[secvball]

I in no way brought this up to dis on Finney. I was shocked after hearing about it but now am more shocked after hearing the full story. I would like to hear the other side of the story because this is so ridiculous that I find it hard to believe. I'm not saying Drew is lying but if this is true that ref should lose his job.
I will disagree with the comments about unfair officiating coming from Steuben County. The game may be called differently then you are used to but I doubt the officials purposely try to change the outcome of the game. Most of the Steuben County Refs I know are stand up guys. Everyone misses a call or two but to insist they are missing calls on purpose is just stupid.

Sorry, I should clarify what I meant. I'm not insisting they are trying to miss calls on purpose. But I have noticed questionable calls seem to rise for smaller rochester area teams when they cross county lines for pretty much every sport. Maybe it is because of familiarity of the local teams and coaches for the refs. Maybe there is a "local pride" factor for SOME refs and a resentment toward rochester area teams. Remember this is high school basketball and refs maybe less detached from games than say a college or NBA ref would be.

[sectionVhoops30]

Here's the deal as best I know. Finney was trying to press to seal the deal with 11 seconds left.

The player setting the trap for Finney, was called for a foul. When the ref turned to report it to the scorers table, the Finney player was elbowed so hard his nose was broken and pouring out blood.

Coach Marchand asked the ref what he was going to do about his player's injury. The ref said something to the effect of "Here's what I'm going to do" and walked over and gave the Finney player a T. The kid who was over getting treatment to stop the bleeding made some comment about what a garbage call it was and he received a second T and was kicked out of the game. So Walsh hit 5/6 FT at this point, Coach Marchand called a timeout and approached the other ref to ask why his player with a broekn nose was kicked out of the game. The ref who had just called the technicals was on the far baseline at this point. He heard Coach Marchand asking the other ref about the situation and he ran across the court and gave the coach a T as well. So, Walsh got two more shots and the ball.

Sounds like a fun situation! Obviously the referee saw a different situation, but when a player has a broken nose that occurs after the play and he gets kicked out of the game, something is wrong.

wow if thats all true i dont care that ref should never step foot on a court again

[DSport]

Sorry, I should clarify what I meant. I'm not insisting they are trying to miss calls on purpose. But I have noticed questionable calls seem to rise for smaller rochester area teams when they cross county lines for pretty much every sport. Maybe it is because of familiarity of the local teams and coaches for the refs. Maybe there is a "local pride" factor for SOME refs and a resentment toward rochester area teams. Remember this is high school basketball and refs maybe less detached from games than say a college or NBA ref would be.

Not sure anymore on the college level. I cringe when I watch the Cuse and see Tim Higgins or Jim Burr as an official. They always seem to lose those games and the fouls counts are horrendous. Maybe you're right. Maybe there is some bias toward the smaller city schools. If there is, I doubt it is on purpose. It might be subconscious. Who knows.

[DrewVT6]

I hope the kid is okay and I hope Coach Marchand has plenty of time to fix his schedule so he can get a better sectional seeding, like he did last year.

You know these sort of comments are just silly in this situation.

DSport- I too would like to hear another perspective on this situation. However, the facts lead me to believe that at the very least the referee was in over his head.

So, unless someone else interviews the Bishop Walsh coach, or either of the referees, everything from here on out is simply speculative.

[thewonderdog]

Regarding the Walsh/Finney game last night...I talked with the Walsh coach about an hour after the game, and I talked to the ref that hit the player and the coach with the techs the next morning (today). I did not seek them out, I just happened to be in the same place each of them was. First, the Walsh coach felt bad that the game ended like that and was not 100% sure the t's were warranted. His kid did not blatantly elbow the Finney kid, he was protecting the ball (chinning it), the kid reached in to foul and got caught pretty hard. The kid with the nose got teed for language/berating the official; even hurt, even if you think you are right, you still have to keep your cool. The Walsh coach said the Finney coach was not over the line or over-reacting, just asking for an explanation. I did not ask the ref why he teed up the coach; he is a veteran ref but does have a sometimes quick whistle and he doesn't take a lot of crap. He probably over-reacted to the situation. The bottom line is this: don't put yourself in a position to have the refs affect the outcome of a game. If you take care of business before there is 10 seconds to go in a game you can avoid this situation. I believe Walsh won at Finney earlier, so it's not like this is a big upset. Walsh is a good team and playing at their gym is very difficult. Their coach is a class guy. It was an unfortunate incident that the ref probably could have handled better. Maybe the kid and/or the coach had been warned earlier. Maybe they were running their mouths all game. Who knows. Unless you were there you should avoid piling on, because you probably do not have all the facts.

[DSport]

Regarding the Walsh/Finney game last night...I talked with the Walsh coach about an hour after the game, and I talked to the ref that hit the player and the coach with the techs the next morning (today). I did not seek them out, I just happened to be in the same place each of them was. First, the Walsh coach felt bad that the game ended like that and was not 100% sure the t's were warranted. His kid did not blatantly elbow the Finney kid, he was protecting the ball (chinning it), the kid reached in to foul and got caught pretty hard. The kid with the nose got teed for language/berating the official; even hurt, even if you think you are right, you still have to keep your cool. The Walsh coach said the Finney coach was not over the line or over-reacting, just asking for an explanation. I did not ask the ref why he teed up the coach; he is a veteran ref but does have a sometimes quick whistle and he doesn't take a lot of crap. He probably over-reacted to the situation. The bottom line is this: don't put yourself in a position to have the refs affect the outcome of a game. If you take care of business before there is 10 seconds to go in a game you can avoid this situation. I believe Walsh won at Finney earlier, so it's not like this is a big upset. Walsh is a good team and playing at their gym is very difficult. Their coach is a class guy. It was an unfortunate incident that the ref probably could have handled better. Maybe the kid and/or the coach had been warned earlier. Maybe they were running their mouths all game. Who knows. Unless you were there you should avoid piling on, because you probably do not have all the facts.

That makes a little more sense now. I figured the kid that got elbowed spewed out some language. Maybe the ref was a little harsh on Coach Marchand but it aparently wasn't a crooked scam.

[DSport]

I know that I have been a ball breaker on this site. I want to assure you that I am very serious in making this post. I officiated basketball for since 1980 at the high school and college level. I "retired" after the 07 season, so I am still in the know. Let me share a story about an experience that I had.

I was assigned a sectional game with a split crew. Me from Board 60, the other officila from Steuben County. We make contact prior to the game, a customary procedure. The other official goes in to a rant about how we should make sure that we call things "evenly" If we call things on the Stueben County team, make sure we call it on the Monroe County team. I was apalled. I told him, that what ever happens, we call it appropriately. I was not in the position to make things up. Needless to say, our philosophies didn't mesh. Lucky for him, we were in a blow out !st round game. I think the final score was almost a 40 pt difference. My point here is that there are cheaters at all levels. I can tell you this. When teams from out of town came to Rochester, they were confident that they were going to get a fair game called. When Rochester teams traveled elswhere, they din't go with the same confidence, as a matter of fact , they knew they were going to get "homed" This situation seems extreme, but it is very possible. I hate to think that an officail could be so blatant in his work that he could "cheat" , Coach Marchand spoke at the Board 60 Rochester Banquet, as has many other coaches over the years. They all say the same thing. The Rochester officials call the game fairly without partisanship. I know that the Rochester schools get screwed when traelling. It saddens me as a former official that the integrity of our avocation can be diminished by others. The assurtions that we are treated differntly in other area is true, and it hurts me to think that. I believe Finney got screwed. I respect what Drew has posted and belive it as fact. Too bad that this behavior exists today. That official (s) should not be able to work again.

I turned in a complaint against that official that I had to work with. Nothing has been done to that official, to my knowledge.

I hear you. But I wouldn't say Finney got screwed. They were down by two with 11 seconds to go. A player cusses at an official. Are you saying there shouldn't be a tech there? I agree that from what I've heard that is where it should have ended.

[hilly]

I should stay out of this, but I won't. I'm very fair to officials and always have been, but there is bias if you have a Section X official doing a game between a Section X and XX team.
Marchand is not always the most calm guy and off the record I could tell you stories about what officials say about him, but this situation sounds like a mess. I could never say that either side is correct if I wasn't there, so I won't.
But trust me, Section 2 teams don't want to go to Section 5 and have a game coached by our officials either.

[easyrsaidthandone]

I know that I have been a ball breaker on this site. I want to assure you that I am very serious in making this post. I officiated basketball for since 1980 at the high school and college level. I "retired" after the 07 season, so I am still in the know. Let me share a story about an experience that I had.

I was assigned a sectional game with a split crew. Me from Board 60, the other officila from Steuben County. We make contact prior to the game, a customary procedure. The other official goes in to a rant about how we should make sure that we call things "evenly" If we call things on the Stueben County team, make sure we call it on the Monroe County team. I was apalled. I told him, that what ever happens, we call it appropriately. I was not in the position to make things up. Needless to say, our philosophies didn't mesh. Lucky for him, we were in a blow out !st round game. I think the final score was almost a 40 pt difference. My point here is that there are cheaters at all levels. I can tell you this. When teams from out of town came to Rochester, they were confident that they were going to get a fair game called. When Rochester teams traveled elswhere, they din't go with the same confidence, as a matter of fact , they knew they were going to get "homed" This situation seems extreme, but it is very possible. I hate to think that an officail could be so blatant in his work that he could "cheat" , Coach Marchand spoke at the Board 60 Rochester Banquet, as has many other coaches over the years. They all say the same thing. The Rochester officials call the game fairly without partisanship. I know that the Rochester schools get screwed when traelling. It saddens me as a former official that the integrity of our avocation can be diminished by others. The assurtions that we are treated differntly in other area is true, and it hurts me to think that. I believe Finney got screwed. I respect what Drew has posted and belive it as fact. Too bad that this behavior exists today. That official (s) should not be able to work again.

I turned in a complaint against that official that I had to work with. Nothing has been done to that official, to my knowledge.

Good post, I just hope for your sake that Coach Z. doesnt read it, because you had many mispellings and grammatical errors, I guess noones perfect, even you.

[Uconnfan50]

Regarding the Walsh/Finney game last night...I talked with the Walsh coach about an hour after the game, and I talked to the ref that hit the player and the coach with the techs the next morning (today). I did not seek them out, I just happened to be in the same place each of them was. First, the Walsh coach felt bad that the game ended like that and was not 100% sure the t's were warranted. His kid did not blatantly elbow the Finney kid, he was protecting the ball (chinning it), the kid reached in to foul and got caught pretty hard. The kid with the nose got teed for language/berating the official; even hurt, even if you think you are right, you still have to keep your cool. The Walsh coach said the Finney coach was not over the line or over-reacting, just asking for an explanation. I did not ask the ref why he teed up the coach; he is a veteran ref but does have a sometimes quick whistle and he doesn't take a lot of crap. He probably over-reacted to the situation. The bottom line is this: don't put yourself in a position to have the refs affect the outcome of a game. If you take care of business before there is 10 seconds to go in a game you can avoid this situation. I believe Walsh won at Finney earlier, so it's not like this is a big upset. Walsh is a good team and playing at their gym is very difficult. Their coach is a class guy. It was an unfortunate incident that the ref probably could have handled better. Maybe the kid and/or the coach had been warned earlier. Maybe they were running their mouths all game. Who knows. Unless you were there you should avoid piling on, because you probably do not have all the facts.



Walsh did win at Finney earlier this year, but it was a good game. Finney lost by 3 in a great game.

Now to go off of OldSchool:

I remember playing down in section VI last year against Timon. That game was ridiculous, but never the less, a great experience. To make a long story short, Marchand asked an official several times to "please watch, I'm trying to call a timeout." So on the next possession we score and I literally was jumping up and down in that refs face to get the timeout, and almost got T'd up for it. Marchand did get T'd because he asked yet again to watch for the timeout call.

Trust me, we all wanted Timon in Rochester because we knew it would be a good game, even though we only lost by 6 in Buffalo.

Also to go off the Stueben refs:

I can see why people think they miss calls, they do sometimes, but they are human. My belief is that the stueben county refs just allow more bumps in the play than people like. Just a different style of reffing and playing down there.

[BathRamsFan]

I watched a local game this past friday night where one of the refs was a very well respected veteran and I didn't know who the "other guy" was. The "other guy" was terrible and it was both ways. A kid from the visiting team took an incidental elbow going for a rebound and had to go to the hospital for stitches. Two of the home team guys went down and stayed down after hard fouls, that weren't called right in front of "the other guy". And some of the calls he DID make had me scratching my head. And at the end of a very tight game a kid on the visiting team gets tripped going to the hoop, loses the ball and from my perspective it looked like it was pretty clearly knocked out by the home team, but no foul and hometeam got the ball. All I could do was laugh. I think for the most part the local guys do a good job and should be praised for doing the job they do, it is thankless.