Referee's

[OldSchool78]

Over the months, there are always discussions about officials. I would like to pose a few questions. I would like to know what people think officials miss the most. This would tell me what your basketball IQ is.

In your opinions, there are no right or wrong answers here, just opinions.

All of these are BASKETBALL scenarios. Please keep it to basketball.

What call(s) do officials miss most?

What irritates you most about officials?

What do you like about certain officials?

What makes a good official?

[Section5sportsguy]

I think the best job an official can do is not get noticed.

[coachstew]

I'm not sure if there is any call they miss more than another, and this year I have to say I think officiating is better than recent years. The one thing officials do, and it has happened a few times this year, is when a play happens in front of one official under the basket who doesn't call anything, and the guy on top calls something. That will always get questioned by me. I think a good official is usually a consistent offical. In other words that was a foul in the third minute, so it's a foul in the third quarter. This gives kids a chance to adjust to the tempo of the game.

[Rams15]

Having been a varsity official for 16 years, it would be very elitist of me to condemn the capabilities of the current officials. Oh well, I have been called worse than having a big ego, so here goes !!

1. What calls do officials miss the most ?? ( IMO ) They miss the contact or banging that takes place away from the ball. I have noticed that, many to most of the current officials, do not look off the ball. Personally, I believe that high school basketball has become way too physical. There is far too much contact allowed or permitted; both in guarding on the ball and grabbing in the lane. For me, it makes me absolutely crazy to watch the hand checking that is permitted on the ball. Pitty pat checking is one thing but when it is two hand extension on the ball to stop an offensive player from advancing, this is a foul and should be called. Seldom do officials make this call. ( from the ton of games that I attend ) When I approach them about it afterwards their response is, " it didn't affect the outcome of the play " ? How the hell do they know this. The play wasn't permitted to develop because of the obvious hand checking.

2. What irritates me the most about officials ? I have a hard time with certain officials who put themselves above the game. What I mean by that are the officials ( and there are quite a few ) who constantly talk to the players, the coaches, and even the fans. It is one thing to quitely say to a player " get out of the lane. Don't camp. " to give them warning before you call a foul. It is another to " politic " and act like you are running for mayor. As mentioned, a good official should be as invisible as possible. They should have command of the game and certainly try to not affect the outcome of the contest. I have seen borderline calls made at critical junctures of a game because certain officials want to be noticed. ( that is my opinion ) They want to call a reach out front when the score is tied with 3 seconds to go. They want to call a travel on a jump stop move to the basket when they have let if go all night. These personalities should sell cars not officiate. They should spend less time on explaining their calls and more time in managing the game, itself.

3/4. What do you like about certain officials ? I love the fact that certain officials manage a game with consistency and command. From the get-go they control a game with quiet efficiency and earn the respect of the players. From the onset of each contest they conduct themselves as professionals and focus on the game and not the ancillary pieces of any contest.( chatting with coaches, waving to fans in the stands, putting their arms around a player etc ) When an official makes a call it is a no win situation. Half of the people in the stands are generally going to be ticked off because a call did not go their way !! That is the way it is. However... a good official is consistent with his calls and manages player behavior with fairness and decisive decision making. You aren't there to be a freind, you are there to deliver the best job you can do, to allow the game to dictate the outcome. Consistency is so important so that the players understand what is permitted and what is is not. Too often the calls change as the game progresses and the players have no idea what is allowed. What was called holding underneath in the 1st quarter is now allowed in the 4th. Fans and players alike see this and that is when they get worked up into a frenzy. It then appears as if the officials are choosing favorites when nothing could be further from the truth. It is like a home plate umpire who is not consistent with his strike zone. The batters have no idea what to swing at and then the game can get out of control because of frustration.

It has become so difficult to obtain officials in most sports because no one wants to take the abuse. It is a thankless profession but those who undertake its responsibilities, hopefully do it for the love of the game. I decided to call it a career when I took my young son ( who was 6 years old ) to an East vs. West game years ago. That was probably my fault for doing so. By the end of the game when I picked him up, he was sobbing and shaking because of the comments and threats that were made from the stands. You really need thick skin and a short memory to be a basketball official and I commend all of them for doing so. even though I don't agree with all of your calls. ( haha )

[quesadilla]

I think the best job an official can do is not get noticed.

Well said.
I agree.

[boobiemiles]

OldSchool let's see if you agree with me or not...

3 Seconds
I believe that 3 seconds is the single most misunderstood rule in the game. It's not called because it really doesn't happen as much as Joe fan in the stands thinks it does.

Jump Stop

The jump stop is indeed a tough one to call because it happens very quickly and you have to think about its legality.

An official has to decide what happened in 10ths of a second. Look at that rule alone. Several things could happen, the official has to decide which one did, and get the call right.

Charge/Block

The block charge is the toughest call to make in basketball. It has nothing to do with the feet, but it does have everything to with the upper torso position. Keep this in mind when thinking about my explanation. Answer this question. Can you play defense without moving your feet? The answer is clearly a resounding NO.

The key to making the correct call in a block/charge situation is this. If the contact occurred between the shoulder blades of the defender and the contact was created by the offense, the foul is an offensive foul.

Also, the defense has the right to protect himself. He may turn his head so he doesn't take the contact in the face or head.

Looking at the feet of the defender will get you in trouble. Try looking at the upper body to determine where and when the contact occurred, this will let you look through the officials eyes, if he is doing his job correctly.

[boobiemiles]

And OldSchool, what do you think about Board 60 changing the rotations to be 3 man crews for sectionals?

I saw some scrimmages this year and it looked like they were having a tough time adjusting to the "C" concept.

[Section5sportsguy]

I must say Basketball officiating is the toughest, as there are a vast amount of rules who legality must be judged in a matter of seconds.

[OldSchool78]

OldSchool let's see if you agree with me or not...

3 Seconds
I believe that 3 seconds is the single most misunderstood rule in the game. It's not called because it really doesn't happen as much as Joe fan in the stands thinks it does.

Jump Stop

The jump stop is indeed a tough one to call because it happens very quickly and you have to think about its legality.

An official has to decide what happened in 10ths of a second. Look at that rule alone. Several things could happen, the official has to decide which one did, and get the call right.

Charge/Block

The block charge is the toughest call to make in basketball. It has nothing to do with the feet, but it does have everything to with the upper torso position. Keep this in mind when thinking about my explanation. Answer this question. Can you play defense without moving your feet? The answer is clearly a resounding NO.

The key to making the correct call in a block/charge situation is this. If the contact occurred between the shoulder blades of the defender and the contact was created by the offense, the foul is an offensive foul.

Also, the defense has the right to protect himself. He may turn his head so he doesn't take the contact in the face or head.

Looking at the feet of the defender will get you in trouble. Try looking at the upper body to determine where and when the contact occurred, this will let you look through the officials eyes, if he is doing his job correctly.

You are funny. I believe I wrote this. Well said though.

[OldSchool78]

And OldSchool, what do you think about Board 60 changing the rotations to be 3 man crews for sectionals?

I saw some scrimmages this year and it looked like they were having a tough time adjusting to the "C" concept.

I think 3 man makes for a better game. Board 60 has very qualified officials conducting clinics. Once all officials are on the same page, it will be a better game. Having worked a few 3 man games myself, I might come out of retirement now that it will become available for sectional games.

BTW, Board 60 has been trying to get 3 man crews for about 5 years. Section V has always said no.

[boobiemiles]

You are funny. I believe I wrote this. Well said though.
Haha how could you tell?

I was hoping you would contradict yourself

[hornets10]

officials that let u play are the best, i mean u cant just kill the kid but if u get bumped and stuff that shouldnt be called

[OldSchool78]

Haha how could you tell?

I was hoping you would contradict yourself

Nice try. I always try to be consistent.

[threepointplay]

For me as a long time official, the most important thing is being consistant from 1st minute to last minute of a game. First game to last game of the year. We are human, and like most everyone else in life, we make mistakes. We have great games and bad games. I 200% agree that the best game you officiate, is when the game is over and nobody is talking about the officials. For me I want coaches to know what type of game I call. That way they can tell there kids before the game starts. We have Mr. -- tonight this is what he calls, so play the game accordingly. The worst thing is not to be consistant. The kids play hard, the coaches coach hard and we should always strive to give our best effort ever single night.

All that being said I believe managing the game is a very large part of being a succesful referee. Awarness of game clock, shot clock, making the people at the table feel like there part of your team. Without them were in big trouble. Remembering that not every play where contact occurs is a foul. The key is was there and advantage gained. It is a tough job, but one I truly love and hope to continue to do for quite some time. Block / charge is till the toughest call in the game.

[Lukelakers]

I have to say officiating in FLW has been better than it has ben in recent years. Even the JV officials seem to have improved a lot this year. I feel like consistency has been better, and the thing I like is they are calling the walks, the carrying of the ball, and those things better. The only thing I would like to see called more is 3 seconds, but that is mainly because we are small inside and a big guy in there hurts us.

I thought the officiating in the HAC-Dundee game a week ago was the best I have seen in the FL or Steuben Co. all year.

[OldSchool78]

I thought the officiating in the HAC-Dundee game a week ago was the best I have seen in the FL or Steuben Co. all year.


That's because HAC and Dundee are part of Board 60's territory. Board 60 has been recognized as one of the best boards in the COUNTRY. They even moved up a notch or two because I retired.

[OldSchool78]

Board 60 out of Rochester covers the following leagues:

Monroe County, City, Genesee/Orleans, Livingston, Finger Lakes, Wayne.

There is no organization out of Finger Lakes.

[DaddyBear]

These are some 10 the tough calls i see or comments i look for during a game.

1-consistantcy both ways
2-game control- not being the show
3-jump stops-most are travels. Most players are not landing both feet at the same time.
4-a feel for the game. Each game can be different by the talent level.
5-straight up rule on fouls. Alot of refs blow this one.
6-charging-maybe the toughest call to make.
7-blocking-usually a call you can tell
8-too much defensive contact on the ball handler allowed
9-coach & team conduct
10-3 seconds. Are they moving or parking?

[Lukelakers]

That's because HAC and Dundee are part of Board 60's territory. Board 60 has been recognized as one of the best boards in the COUNTRY. They even moved up a notch or two because I retired.

Thank you...as Coachstew alluded to earlier, they have had a fine season....

[DaddyBear]

I heard today that Section V will be using 3 officials during the state qualifier games. Has anyone from Board 60 heard that? And are they going to consider using 3 officials in the section 5 finals? I think it would be good for the finals and maybe even the semi-finals.

[boobiemiles]

Yes and Yes.

[UNCTarheels]

I heard today that Section V will be using 3 officials during the state qualifier games. Has anyone from Board 60 heard that? And are they going to consider using 3 officials in the section 5 finals? I think it would be good for the finals and maybe even the semi-finals.

They'll be using 3 officials for the Sectional Sem-Finals & Finals starting this season.

[courtrunner]

They'll be using 3 officials for the Sectional Sem-Finals & Finals starting this season.

interesting.... i guess they really want to get all the calls this year.lol. thats good

[cornellalum]

personally with all the tax cuts finding it hard not to be able to pay for refs and the lack of refs on boards it would be nice to see 3 refs at every game.

[OldSchool78]

personally with all the tax cuts finding it hard not to be able to pay for refs and the lack of refs on boards it would be nice to see 3 refs at every game.

What did you say?

[coachstew]

After the last two nights I have a new pet peeve for officials. I'm hoping some of the officials on here can lend some insight to if this is the proper way to handle such situations. Girls game Thursday, and guys game on Friday, both times Varsity officials were having a less than stellar night with the whistle. Coaches got on their case pretty good, and the officials decided to go over and have a fairly lengthy conversation with coaches. One time we had a kid who was just fouled, so he is standing on the line for a good two or three minutes while the official discussed a call with the opposing coach. My theory is simple tell them once "I've heard enough" or "This is your warning" then if it continues slap a tech on them. I'd like to hear from other officials on here to see if this is how this should be handled??

[OldSchool78]

After the last two nights I have a new pet peeve for officials. I'm hoping some of the officials on here can lend some insight to if this is the proper way to handle such situations. Girls game Thursday, and guys game on Friday, both times Varsity officials were having a less than stellar night with the whistle. Coaches got on their case pretty good, and the officials decided to go over and have a fairly lengthy conversation with coaches. One time we had a kid who was just fouled, so he is standing on the line for a good two or three minutes while the official discussed a call with the opposing coach. My theory is simple tell them once "I've heard enough" or "This is your warning" then if it continues slap a tech on them. I'd like to hear from other officials on here to see if this is how this should be handled??

I can honestly say that the longer I talked to a coach the worse it got. I don't have an answer as to why the conversation would have lasted as long as it did. I personally have no idea what could have transpired. If you are talking about the Romulus game, I see that you had a couple of fairly new varsity officials.

I can tell you from my experience, when I had a bad game, and that happened in December of 1985, I was the first one to know. I didn't need any help from the coaches or fans to tell me how much I sucked. When I blew a call, I admitted it and we (hopefully) moved on. I can't explain why the long disertation. If I can't get my message across in the first 10 seconds, than we are probably going to have a T.

Maybe they were talking about things that were happening during te game. Was it a difficult game? Was it overly physical and the players just weren't responding? Was there some bad blood between the teams? Were both coaches involved in the discussion? There are alot of possibilities and I am trying to put myself in their shoes. I can tell you that in the almost 1000 games that I have officiated, there has only been one or two instances where I had a more than 10 second conversation with a coach. I know this explanation is vague, but I would need more information to give you a better answer.

[coachstew]

I can honestly say that the longer I talked to a coach the worse it got. I don't have an answer as to why the conversation would have lasted as long as it did. I personally have no idea what could have transpired. If you are talking about the Romulus game, I see that you had a couple of fairly new varsity officials.

I can tell you from my experience, when I had a bad game, and that happened in December of 1985, I was the first one to know. I didn't need any help from the coaches or fans to tell me how much I sucked. When I blew a call, I admitted it and we (hopefully) moved on. I can't explain why the long disertation. If I can't get my message across in the first 10 seconds, than we are probably going to have a T.

Maybe they were talking about things that were happening during te game. Was it a difficult game? Was it overly physical and the players just weren't responding? Was there some bad blood between the teams? Were both coaches involved in the discussion? There are alot of possibilities and I am trying to put myself in their shoes. I can tell you that in the almost 1000 games that I have officiated, there has only been one or two instances where I had a more than 10 second conversation with a coach. I know this explanation is vague, but I would need more information to give you a better answer.

As far as I know there is no bad blood between the two schools. Coaches are friendly with each other. I will say this in the girls game the second half fouls of an overtime game were 12 to 3 in Dundee's favor. The guys game was just plain physical. Lot of grabbing and holding by both teams. However, I didn't see any dirty play from either school. My theory is you warn them, and then that's enough here's your Tech.

[ramblinman]

Personally, I believe that high school basketball has become way too physical. There is far too much contact allowed or permitted; both in guarding on the ball and grabbing in the lane. For me, it makes me absolutely crazy to watch the hand checking that is permitted on the ball. Pitty pat checking is one thing but when it is two hand extension on the ball to stop an offensive player from advancing, this is a foul and should be called. Seldom do officials make this call. ( from the ton of games that I attend ) When I approach them about it afterwards their response is, " it didn't affect the outcome of the play " ? How the hell do they know this. The play wasn't permitted to develop because of the obvious hand checking.

Amen. It's common in today's game for the on-ball defender to make regular contact on the dribbler, using their hips to body-up. It's a foul, plain and simple ... but it doesn't get called. It's a foul because the defender is using physical contact to slow down the dribbler, thus gaining an advantage. If the defense makes physical contact on a shot, it affects play, the defense gains an advantage, a foul is called. On-ball body contact for the purpose of "pressuring" a dribbler is a foul.

[sectionvguy1]

Heard a rumor that the girl's are staying with 2 man?

[OldSchool78]

Amen. It's common in today's game for the on-ball defender to make regular contact on the dribbler, using their hips to body-up. It's a foul, plain and simple ... but it doesn't get called. It's a foul because the defender is using physical contact to slow down the dribbler, thus gaining an advantage. If the defense makes physical contact on a shot, it affects play, the defense gains an advantage, a foul is called. On-ball body contact for the purpose of "pressuring" a dribbler is a foul.

The following post on a excerpt from the national board of officials.

Rough Play

The concern applies to both the offense and the
defense.
Keys displacement; bumping cutters; backing
down opponent; allowing offensive and defensive
player freedom of movement is a MUST.
Defenders are not permitted to have hands on the
ball handler/dribbler or other offensive players
away from the ball
Offensive players are not permitted to use hands or
body to push off to create space.
Contact is NOT incidental.
A foul must be ruled, regardless of where it
happens on the court, when a player:
Continuously places a hand on an opponent
Places two hands on an opponent
Continuously jabs a hand or forearm on an
opponent.
Loose-ball situation is not consent for jumping on
an opponent to create a held ball.
Going for the ball is not permission to take out or
displace an opponent who is in a more
advantageous position.
Incidental contact is permitted when players are in
equally favorable positions.

[Rams15]

I wish our Board of officials in Steuben County would make the hand checking a point of emphasis. It has gotten to the point where defensive players are literally extending their arms to stop an offensive guard from making forward progress. The amount of physicality they permit ,in my opinion, is ludicrous. More than 50% of the time this inhibits an offensive player from beating their man. At times I wish they would call pass interference and throw a yellow flag. It is that bad !!!

[OldSchool78]

I wish our Board of officials in Steuben County would make the hand checking a point of emphasis. It has gotten to the point where defensive players are literally extending their arms to stop an offensive guard from making forward progress. The amount of physicality they permit ,in my opinion, is ludicrous. More than 50% of the time this inhibits an offensive player from beating their man. At times I wish they would call pass interference and throw a yellow flag. It is that bad !!!

My above post came from the IAABO themselves. It isn't just a one borad thing. That went to all interpreters of every board. It is a point of emphasis in your league......LOL

[threepointplay]

As officials nothing frustrates us more than people bringing up the fouls are 12-3. So what?? We don't officiate to make the fouls even, we officiate the game!! If team A is pressing full court and playing a physical style, forcing turnovers and getting points off said turnovers, alot of time they will be drawing more fouls. Is one team in a zone? Does one team drive the ball to the hole more frequently and the other settles for outside shots? There are numerous things that go into how many fouls are called.
In one of my recent games at halftime the fouls were like 9-3 against one team. Of course the coach with the 3 fouls commented and halftime about what a great job we had done and the other was close to getting a technical. In the second half the fouls were 10-2 the other way. I personally think we called the same fouls from the opening minute to the closing minute. Again, so many things go into this. style of play and sometimes kids get tired. The great defense and shots they were blocking early became fouls later when they were tired and lost a step. Officals see grey, they try and officiate the same from opening minute to end of the game. They see, react and blow the whistle. They certainly don't have time to think about who has how many fouls and let that dictate what they call.

[OldSchool78]

As officials nothing frustrates us more than people bringing up the fouls are 12-3. So what?? We don't officiate to make the fouls even, we officiate the game!! If team A is pressing full court and playing a physical style, forcing turnovers and getting points off said turnovers, alot of time they will be drawing more fouls. Is one team in a zone? Does one team drive the ball to the hole more frequently and the other settles for outside shots? There are numerous things that go into how many fouls are called.
In one of my recent games at halftime the fouls were like 9-3 against one team. Of course the coach with the 3 fouls commented and halftime about what a great job we had done and the other was close to getting a technical. In the second half the fouls were 10-2 the other way. I personally think we called the same fouls from the opening minute to the closing minute. Again, so many things go into this. style of play and sometimes kids get tired. The great defense and shots they were blocking early became fouls later when they were tired and lost a step. Officals see grey, they try and officiate the same from opening minute to end of the game. They see, react and blow the whistle. They certainly don't have time to think about who has how many fouls and let that dictate what they call.

Whenever a coach said to me, "It's 10-2 in fouls", I always said back, "I call them, I don't count them"

What the coach is really saying here is that he believes you are cheating. I know there are a few officials that like to "keep it even", but if that meant I had to make up a call, he can kiss my a@#. I call what I see. If we did that, should we try to make all games end in a tie? LMAO.

I also like the coach that conitinually asks for 3 seconds. Chances are after several requests and still not getting the call, you might move on to something else. It's like asking your wife to go on a golf vacation with the boys and a couple of pole dancers........it's not gonna happen.

[threepointplay]

Very good reply

[OldSchool78]

Very good reply

Feel free to use these. They retired when I did. I have more.

[TopShelf]

This is a thread were I have never liked OldSchool78 more. This is very good information and solid work. On the issue of the difference between the two teams being substantial, I understand that the refs are calling what they see. In my opinion people, including myself, often criticize refs no matter what the sport if they believe that fouls are being called on when team, but is not being called on the other side of the floor. I admit, I'm usually wrong because I: A) have a bad angle or B) have a misunderstanding of the rule, like the common sports fan.

[EaglePride]

Having been a varsity official for 16 years, it would be very elitist of me to condemn the capabilities of the current officials. Oh well, I have been called worse than having a big ego, so here goes !!

1. What calls do officials miss the most ?? ( IMO ) They miss the contact or banging that takes place away from the ball. I have noticed that, many to most of the current officials, do not look off the ball. Personally, I believe that high school basketball has become way too physical. There is far too much contact allowed or permitted; both in guarding on the ball and grabbing in the lane. For me, it makes me absolutely crazy to watch the hand checking that is permitted on the ball. Pitty pat checking is one thing but when it is two hand extension on the ball to stop an offensive player from advancing, this is a foul and should be called. Seldom do officials make this call. ( from the ton of games that I attend ) When I approach them about it afterwards their response is, " it didn't affect the outcome of the play " ? How the hell do they know this. The play wasn't permitted to develop because of the obvious hand checking.

2. What irritates me the most about officials ? I have a hard time with certain officials who put themselves above the game. What I mean by that are the officials ( and there are quite a few ) who constantly talk to the players, the coaches, and even the fans. It is one thing to quitely say to a player " get out of the lane. Don't camp. " to give them warning before you call a foul. It is another to " politic " and act like you are running for mayor. As mentioned, a good official should be as invisible as possible. They should have command of the game and certainly try to not affect the outcome of the contest. I have seen borderline calls made at critical junctures of a game because certain officials want to be noticed. ( that is my opinion ) They want to call a reach out front when the score is tied with 3 seconds to go. They want to call a travel on a jump stop move to the basket when they have let if go all night. These personalities should sell cars not officiate. They should spend less time on explaining their calls and more time in managing the game, itself.

3/4. What do you like about certain officials ? I love the fact that certain officials manage a game with consistency and command. From the get-go they control a game with quiet efficiency and earn the respect of the players. From the onset of each contest they conduct themselves as professionals and focus on the game and not the ancillary pieces of any contest.( chatting with coaches, waving to fans in the stands, putting their arms around a player etc ) When an official makes a call it is a no win situation. Half of the people in the stands are generally going to be ticked off because a call did not go their way !! That is the way it is. However... a good official is consistent with his calls and manages player behavior with fairness and decisive decision making. You aren't there to be a freind, you are there to deliver the best job you can do, to allow the game to dictate the outcome. Consistency is so important so that the players understand what is permitted and what is is not. Too often the calls change as the game progresses and the players have no idea what is allowed. What was called holding underneath in the 1st quarter is now allowed in the 4th. Fans and players alike see this and that is when they get worked up into a frenzy. It then appears as if the officials are choosing favorites when nothing could be further from the truth. It is like a home plate umpire who is not consistent with his strike zone. The batters have no idea what to swing at and then the game can get out of control because of frustration.

It has become so difficult to obtain officials in most sports because no one wants to take the abuse. It is a thankless profession but those who undertake its responsibilities, hopefully do it for the love of the game. I decided to call it a career when I took my young son ( who was 6 years old ) to an East vs. West game years ago. That was probably my fault for doing so. By the end of the game when I picked him up, he was sobbing and shaking because of the comments and threats that were made from the stands. You really need thick skin and a short memory to be a basketball official and I commend all of them for doing so. even though I don't agree with all of your calls. ( haha )

Excellent assesment, right on the money!!

[sftballrules]

It has become so difficult to obtain officials in most sports because no one wants to take the abuse. It is a thankless profession but those who undertake its responsibilities, hopefully do it for the love of the game. I decided to call it a career when I took my young son ( who was 6 years old ) to an East vs. West game years ago. That was probably my fault for doing so. By the end of the game when I picked him up, he was sobbing and shaking because of the comments and threats that were made from the stands. You really need thick skin and a short memory to be a basketball official and I commend all of them for doing so. even though I don't agree with all of your calls. ( haha )[/QUOTE]

You need a thick skin and short memory to officiate any sport. Some parents are out of control. Those are the ones I want to walk up to and say, you are so good at refing you should become one. I am sure none of them would take me up on that challenge. It is so easy making calls from the stands.

[timmy4]

was a ref yesterday , I won't say which one but at the athena game he seemed to call everything in gates advantage.

So he's a cheater?

[OldSchool78]

where in that post did I say that?


You IMPLIED it with that post

[OldSchool78]

just thought it was very ironic how all calls with him were in gates favor,but sense it wasn't a sectional game I can careless about what happen yesterday


Oh you care, you really care. You can just say that because there is a tomorrow for Athena. If this was a sectional loss, you would be fuming on how you got screwed by the officials.......because you are.......

GREECEMAN!!!!!!!