Mercy Rule

[timmy4]

Section V has a 15-run rule after five complete innings, or if the home team is ahead after 4 1/2. Some sections don't have a mercy rule at all. College has an 8-run rule. Does anyone think the 15-run rule should be revisited and lowered to 10 or 12? Or maybe removed altogether? There's a fine line between statistics and sportsmanship and I'm sure the opinions will vary.

[me43]

Section V has a 15-run rule after five complete innings, or if the home team is ahead after 4 1/2. Some sections don't have a mercy rule at all. College has an 8-run rule. Does anyone think the 15-run rule should be revisited and lowered to 10 or 12? Or maybe removed altogether? There's a fine line between statistics and sportsmanship and I'm sure the opinions will vary.

I dont think they should have it because you never know whats going to happen.

['derse22]

I dont think they should have it because you never know whats going to happen.

True, however I think that they should have a 10 run limit for regular season, and a 15 run limit in tournement play due to teams attitudes when their backs are against the wall vs the "better luck next time" outlook in the regular season when they are down by that much.

[sam]

NYSPHSAA specifies the ASA Rulebook will be the official rulebook for softball.

In '08 the ASA rule changed to 12 runs after 4 innings and 8 runs after 5. Does the State over ride and have a different rule as they do for pitching distance (i.e. 40' rather than 43' as specified for 18U play by the ASA rulebook)?

[DaddyBear]

I think the 15 run rule is good. It's high school and it lets the players get in a 5 inning game. At least there is a rule there. In basketball the score can be 80-10 and you keep playing.

[timmy4]

NYSPHSAA specifies the ASA Rulebook will be the official rulebook for softball.

In '08 the ASA rule changed to 12 runs after 4 innings and 8 runs after 5. Does the State over ride and have a different rule as they do for pitching distance (i.e. 40' rather than 43' as specified for 18U play by the ASA rulebook)?

Yep, but the state chooses to stay out of this one and let's each section handle it the way they choose. Section V uses a 15 run rule.

[dadster81]

1) TIme and weather - these are HS games. Kids have other priorities that they need to take care of after a game - like homework, practice musical instruments, etc.. And this is Rochester - most games are not played in ideal weather conditions. A game that has to be played to a 15 run difference is a LONG game - especially since most coaches who build up a substantial lead start playing base to base, no stealing, no extra bases on plays, etc in a show of good sportsmanship. So the games take longer than usual due to the scoring requirement and the coaches strategy, and then the away team still has to climb on a bus and go back to school, then get picked up by family to go home - ie, it is late. And most of the time everyone is usually standing around in 55 +/- degree weather with a slight wind, usually damp.

2) What do teams on the losing end of a mercy game "gain" by playing for an extra three runs? Nothing. IF they are getting dominated by the pitcher and the opposing defense - another cut at the plate is not helping. If the opposing team has to score three more runs, there are not too many things the losers learn from getting scored upon by three more runs.

So in a nutshell, there are alot of negatives to 15 run rule but no positives to be gained. If they followed the ASA rule (8/12) or even slightly modified to (10/12) I think no wins and losses would change, and everyone gains. Also, I am not in favor of moving the rule back to the 15 runs for Sectionals - why? I cannot think of a single sectional game where the losing team has scored 15 runs (or 12) so the chance of a comeback from a huge deficit are almost not exisitent

[DaddyBear]

I think the kids want to play the game. Maybe you can play some subs more and try out some different lineup changes. Plus, consider the teams that travel.

[backstop86]

So in a nutshell, there are alot of negatives to 15 run rule but no positives to be gained. If they followed the ASA rule (8/12) or even slightly modified to (10/12) I think no wins and losses would change, and everyone gains. Also, I am not in favor of moving the rule back to the 15 runs for Sectionals - why? I cannot think of a single sectional game where the losing team has scored 15 runs (or 12) so the chance of a comeback from a huge deficit are almost not exisitent[/QUOTE]

I agree 15 runs is probably too much after 5 innings - however I don't think I'm in favor of ending a game after 4 innings either. I agree the weather often stinks, there's homework to be done, etc., but there are also some long bus trips to only play 4 innings. An extra inning might allow an opportunity for a player off the bench to get in the game, have an at bat who otherwise might not. So, even though my vote doesn't matter (or maybe because it doesn't!), I would say 10 after 5 would be reasonable. But 15 after 5 seems like it's just a senseless beating.

[backstop86]

So in a nutshell, there are alot of negatives to 15 run rule but no positives to be gained. If they followed the ASA rule (8/12) or even slightly modified to (10/12) I think no wins and losses would change, and everyone gains. Also, I am not in favor of moving the rule back to the 15 runs for Sectionals - why? I cannot think of a single sectional game where the losing team has scored 15 runs (or 12) so the chance of a comeback from a huge deficit are almost not exisitent

I agree 15 runs is probably too much after 5 innings - however I don't think I'm in favor of ending a game after 4 innings either. I agree the weather often stinks, there's homework to be done, etc., but there are also some long bus trips to only play 4 innings. An extra inning might allow an opportunity for a player off the bench to get in the game, have an at bat who otherwise might not. So, even though my vote doesn't matter (or maybe because it doesn't!), I would say 10 after 5 would be reasonable. But 15 after 5 seems like it's just a senseless beating.[/QUOTE]

[dadster81]

if the winning team has already scored 10+ runs, they do not need a 5th round of batting - they have already gone thru their lineup several times. Baseball and softball are the only major sport that is played without a time limit. A great defensive softball game can be played in 75-80 minutes. A bad 10-0 game can be easily over 2 hours. The extra inning will not help, and most kids do not want to be standing out there for another inning (that could run 20 minutes) when they have already been out there for over 2 hours - the parents might, but not the kids. Subs,etc - the coach has had 5 innings to get kids in and move them around if that is their goal.

[Realist]

There was a local team that played in ASA B nationals recently and the score in one of the games was like 30-28. A combo of mediocre teams, below average pitching and bad defense. The coach at the time commented that it was a "great game" with "great hitting". I'm not so sure but clearly with HS ball being a very watered down version of travel ball once the game gets to 10+ runs the chances for a come back are null. Especially in the regular season when in all honesty the games are pretty meaningless. With that I agree with daddster put a time limit on the games once they get to up 8 runs or more. IE no new inning to start after 2 hour mark if a team is up 8 or more.

if the winning team has already scored 10+ runs, they do not need a 5th round of batting - they have already gone thru their lineup several times. Baseball and softball are the only major sport that is played without a time limit. A great defensive softball game can be played in 75-80 minutes. A bad 10-0 game can be easily over 2 hours. The extra inning will not help, and most kids do not want to be standing out there for another inning (that could run 20 minutes) when they have already been out there for over 2 hours - the parents might, but not the kids. Subs,etc - the coach has had 5 innings to get kids in and move them around if that is their goal.

[DaddyBear]

I think even 12 runs after 5 may be good, but I wouldn't lower it anymore. Play the game. This is high school, not the ASA Tournament, or college. Also, a 2-2 1/2 hour time limit may be a good idea, along with the run rule. This would ensure that the game cannot go past a certain time, reguardless of the score.

[sam]

There was a local team that played in ASA B nationals recently and the score in one of the games was like 30-28. A combo of mediocre teams, below average pitching and bad defense. The coach at the time commented that it was a "great game" with "great hitting". I'm not so sure but clearly with HS ball being a very watered down version of travel ball once the game gets to 10+ runs the chances for a come back are null. Especially in the regular season when in all honesty the games are pretty meaningless. With that I agree with daddster put a time limit on the games once they get to up 8 runs or more. IE no new inning to start after 2 hour mark if a team is up 8 or more.

Interesting discussion and it has highlighted something that has caused me to think about this differently. Consider how ASA Games are played vs. High School and college. ASA is mostly tournament play, high school one game per opponent at a time & college usually a double header. The ASA 15/3 or 8/5 suits this style of play where NCAA has a 8/5 rule and it can be set aside EXCEPT in tournament play. The NFHS rule is set state by state. Seems there are compelling reasons for a high school game involving travel and other factors to go as long as it can. I have the impression in Section V coaches do a good job preventing blowouts. I know scores reported to the paper are "kinder" than the actual. I know of a game last year where a team batted from the opposite side after the third inning to prevent a blowout over a mismatched city school opponent. Someone mentioned a team could play the bench but substitution rules prevent that, unfortunately.

Interesting story about the ASA National "B" Tournament game. This was at 14u and the final score was 32-28 after something like 21/2 hours but only 6 innings. it was not a mismatch of mediocre pitching or a bunch of hackers. Combined errors were 7 over 55hits! Double elimination, both teams playing to stay in the tournament. IT was brutally hot that day as it had been all week. The game was played on a non-fenced field with a rock hard outfield w/ grass that had withered and gone dormant from lack of rain. Any ball hit past an outfielder rolled and rolled. The Rochester team led by 9 runs thru 4 innings but just couldn't mercy the other team. In the top of the 5th inning the opposing team unloaded for 11 runs and our team tied it up with two of their own. Next inning it was over - the opposing team scored 10 runs in the top and our team could only answer with 6. It was exhausting physically and emotionally - especially for the pitchers but also for the coaches. It wasn't weak pitching that contributed to this more than inexperienced coaching. Our team couldn't' put the other away and the game lasted too long. It was the coaches and players first national tournament.

[Softball_Fan]

Interesting story about the ASA National "B" Tournament game. This was at 14u and the final score was 32-28 after something like 21/2 hours but only 6 innings. it was not a mismatch of mediocre pitching or a bunch of hackers. Combined errors were 7 over 55hits! Double elimination, both teams playing to stay in the tournament. IT was brutally hot that day as it had been all week. The game was played on a non-fenced field with a rock hard outfield w/ grass that had withered and gone dormant from lack of rain. Any ball hit past an outfielder rolled and rolled. The Rochester team led by 9 runs thru 4 innings but just couldn't mercy the other team. In the top of the 5th inning the opposing team unloaded for 11 runs and our team tied it up with two of their own. Next inning it was over - the opposing team scored 10 runs in the top and our team could only answer with 6. It was exhausting physically and emotionally - especially for the pitchers but also for the coaches. It wasn't weak pitching that contributed to this more than inexperienced coaching. Our team couldn't' put the other away and the game lasted too long. It was the coaches and players first national tournament.

It was not a mismatch of mediocre pitching? 55 *hits* over 6 innings sounds like it could be the definition of mediocre pitching.....and mediocre would be kind. How is it that the inexperienced coaching was at fault and not weak pitching? Unless you are referring to the fact that the inexperience of the coaches kept them from yanking the pitchers.

[sam]

It was not a mismatch of mediocre pitching? 55 *hits* over 6 innings sounds like it could be the definition of mediocre pitching.....and mediocre would be kind. How is it that the inexperienced coaching was at fault and not weak pitching? Unless you are referring to the fact that the inexperience of the coaches kept them from yanking the pitchers.
Mediocre coaching! 21 of those hits against the Rochester team came in the last two innings against the same pitcher. She was exhausted and done in. No sub, no change in defense. Watch a nine run lead evaporate and then go down another 10 runs in the next inning and answer back with 6 to lose by 4! They didn't have "great pitching" but they didn't have mediocre pitching either. One of the pitchers was a varsity starter then and today - an AGR 2nd team selection. Remember this is 14U and they had a varsity starting pitcher!

[backstop86]

Mediocre coaching! 21 of those hits against the Rochester team came in the last two innings against the same pitcher. She was exhausted and done in. No sub, no change in defense. Watch a nine run lead evaporate and then go down another 10 runs in the next inning and answer back with 6 to lose by 4! They didn't have "great pitching" but they didn't have mediocre pitching either. One of the pitchers was a varsity starter then and today - an AGR 2nd team selection. Remember this is 14U and they had a varsity starting pitcher!

So many things running through my mind. Not knowing the coaches involved, it's still tough for me to see how anyone can spin this into simply inexperienced coaching. I had to read this several times to digest it all - and I still thought the score must have been a misprint. No disrespect intended but it's difficult for me to imagine we're talking about two teams of any type of quality despite your endorsement.

With ASA substitution rules, it's not always easy to move players in and out - depending on how deep the roster is. That could be called inexperience - or just misfortune.

I remember speaking to someone from out of the area who's team I believe participated in ASA "B" nationals - I think it was somewhere in PA the summer before last but I could be wrong about that. He said it was a small tournament of about 30 to 40 or so teams, many local LL or club teams, poor fields and terrible competition. Are you talking about the same tournament?

My vote would still be 10 or even 12 runs after 5 innings.

[Softball_Fan]

Mediocre coaching! 21 of those hits against the Rochester team came in the last two innings against the same pitcher. She was exhausted and done in. No sub, no change in defense. Watch a nine run lead evaporate and then go down another 10 runs in the next inning and answer back with 6 to lose by 4! They didn't have "great pitching" but they didn't have mediocre pitching either. One of the pitchers was a varsity starter then and today - an AGR 2nd team selection. Remember this is 14U and they had a varsity starting pitcher!

If you want to comment on poor coaching you have to give details other than 55 hits. Why do you think the coach not changing the defense (other than the pitcher) was mediocre coaching? If they truly were hits, it doesn't matter who played, they would still be hits. Was there another pitcher to go to? Obviously the coach felt there was not (on either team) as this turned into a slow-pitch softball game. As for being a varsity pitcher. There is a huge spectrum of pitching ability at the varsity level, with several there just because there is no other option, so that means little. IMO, a quality 14 year old varsity pitcher should not be playing in 14U B tournaments, and if she did, she would dominate.

[sam]

If you want to comment on poor coaching you have to give details other than 55 hits. Why do you think the coach not changing the defense (other than the pitcher) was mediocre coaching? If they truly were hits, it doesn't matter who played, they would still be hits. Was there another pitcher to go to? Obviously the coach felt there was not (on either team) as this turned into a slow-pitch softball game. As for being a varsity pitcher. There is a huge spectrum of pitching ability at the varsity level, with several there just because there is no other option, so that means little. IMO, a quality 14 year old varsity pitcher should not be playing in 14U B tournaments, and if she did, she would dominate.
Well it was one for the books! Primarily a team of 9th graders entering their sophomore years so a second yr. 14U team. The #1 pitcher and catcher were varsity starters that spring and went runner up in the sectionals. One other player was a varsity player and the rest were JV. All had previous travel experience. IT was a good class B team - not a top team but never embarrassing. They went 21-16 in tournament play that season. Won one tourney and finished runner up twice. IT was an ASA Eastern Region "B" Nationals so the teams had to qualify to be there. No local town league teams or Little League teams that I know of. There were some very good teams there. The fields were a big disappointment but mostly due to the drought (see my earlier post - the rock hard outfield and no fence had a great deal to do with the high scoring game). There were many factors as there are in any game, win or lose. In my opinion it was the coaching for some of the reasons cited; not managing the subs well, moving the outfield around, not keeping both pitchers in the game, not shutting the other team down early when ahead by 9 runs. Now these coaches aren't bad guys, not inept, coached a lot of good games and taught a lot of young women fastpitch softball. - just inexperienced at this level. All IMO of course

[Rochsports]

It is very easy to see why both coaching and ability are questioned. It is not like they had the "Liberty Mutual Coach of the Year". That post is reserved for another self promoting travel team. I don't care how hard the ground that many runs and 55 hits sounds crazy. I mean unless the score keeper is one of these dad's that keeps score and the next day his daughter is is 4-4 on 2 balls kicked in the infield a dropped pop fly and 1 legitimate hit. Pointing to AGR is not real solid defense of ability either. While there are some very legitimate players with that designation there are many that do not warrant it and way too many in total. It actually waters down the designation and as far as college coaches are concerned exactly why HS stats and such are basically meaningless. Here is an idea develop the pitcher to throw and effective drop and change speeds and teach the infield to actually field a ground ball correctly. So many "coaches" are great at the x's and o's but are they actually developing the kids to be better players? Are they emphasizing the proper mechanics? I think if so the likelihood of giving up 30+ runs would be minute. To do it at ASA B Nationals that everyone knows is largely populated with rec level teams sprinkled with a decent team here and there is downright deplorable. To quote a coach that was there that year "the fields were awful, the competition was terrible and the bathrooms were disgusting".

[Coach_H]

Its a good rule, IMO, because if you are down 15 after 5, you are not likely to recover. The biggest hole my girls have ever come back from was down 9-1 in the top half of the 7th, and that was a miracle.

[hacker]

Last two Sutherland JV games were on-sided mismatches and score was something like 21-1 and 31-0. Why no Mercy Rule?

[timmy4]

It is definitely in effect for JV play, so I can only assume they pushed that lead after the completion of the 5th inning. Or if they were the visitors, they could go up by any margin and the home team would still have to bat.

[firemanchaz]

Those scores were after 5 innings. No stealing took place after an 8 run lead except for a delayed steal with a slower runner to end the second inning. The coach called a suicide squeeze with the bases loaded to end the 4th inning.

[sftballrules]

Those scores were after 5 innings. No stealing took place after an 8 run lead except for a delayed steal with a slower runner to end the second inning. The coach called a suicide squeeze with the bases loaded to end the 4th inning.

So the coach did everything possible to keep the score down?

[timmy4]

It happens at all levels that scores sometimes just get out of hand. Shutting down the running game and no more taking of extra bases is where teams will generally start. Nobody wants to rub it in, but you also don't want to walk to first on a ground ball or swing at a pitch that is over your head. It's not always easy to tactfully give outs. In a pinch, leaving a base early is a decent way to give one.